Curse

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Let me tell you about the sweet interaction of [skill]shadow of haste[/skill]-[skill]tiger stance[/skill]
I guess it was the sig after all huh.

Dr Strangelove · May 08, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

not only that but monks rarely carry [skill]Mending Touch[/skill] + [skill]Draw Conditions[/skill] over [skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill] so you have a much better chance of keeping the daze on the monk as his condition removals only take away one condition. With that said imo temple is a safer way to go the GSS but BH is better then both temple and GSS

It doesn't matter whether the monk can remove the daze or not. A daze sin just can't capitalize on the very small window the daze provides, there's just not damage/snares to make it work. I monk an awful lot in RA and TA, and i can honestly say I have never been killed or even truly threatened by a daze sin. If you want to ruin a monk's day as a sin, run knockdowns or shattering assault.

If you want daze, run BHA. It lasts so absurdly long that the monk will be significantly limited for quite a while, rather than minorly inconvenienced while you feebly try to spike him out.

Div · May 08, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Beguiling haze for PvP. The combos you use with the other two strikes are generally not able to kill a monk very easily. If you want daze in PvE, just take a BHA

Krill · May 08, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

The only success I have had with haze on lone monks in arena is using it with with flurry and and a cripple. You need the cripple so they don't kite away and the IAS to increase your chances of hitting 1/4's like patient spirit and RoF. To get that cripple though you have to run caltrops or a hex + black mantis thrust, both of which will pretty much drain all your energy in conjunction with haze...even with radiant insignias and +5 daggers. Basically I don't think it's worth it, if you want a good daze with a sin, run BHA with 7 in marks and a silencing string (16 second daze).

RavagerOfDreams · May 08, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

It doesn't matter whether the monk can remove the daze or not. A daze sin just can't capitalize on the very small window the daze provides, there's just not damage/snares to make it work. I monk an awful lot in RA and TA, and i can honestly say I have never been killed or even truly threatened by a daze sin. If you want to ruin a monk's day as a sin, run knockdowns or shattering assault.

If you want daze, run BHA. It lasts so absurdly long that the monk will be significantly limited for quite a while, rather than minorly inconvenienced while you feebly try to spike him out.

never anywhere in my quote did i say you could effectively kill monks (anyways in ra you don;t get a monk with every team so you don't always have to plan to take out a monk could work for just pestering the other teams squishies while a war does the real work) with any of those skills. I did however say that temple and BH are more effective if your going to use them then GSS. The only build you'll catch me running in RA is the backbreaker sin.

trolling is baed

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

It doesn't matter whether the monk can remove the daze or not. A daze sin just can't capitalize on the very small window the daze provides, there's just not damage/snares to make it work. I monk an awful lot in RA and TA, and i can honestly say I have never been killed or even truly threatened by a daze sin. If you want to ruin a monk's day as a sin, run knockdowns or shattering assault.

We've obviously never met.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

If you want daze, run BHA. It lasts so absurdly long that the monk will be significantly limited for quite a while, rather than minorly inconvenienced while you feebly try to spike him out.

Duration doesn't matter. You run Dismiss amirite

EDIT: Dismiss is usually the first skill I catch on a (good) Monk. The point is I do immediately capitalize on the Daze - BHA Rangers don't have this option (no spike).

Kaleban · May 08, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

In my experience, combining Beguiling Haze with Iron Palm, an IAS and then a four or five skill attack chain is sufficient to kill a monk.

If the point of a sin is to kill a target within 6 seconds, a 10 second Daze is more than enough.

Besides, most of my spike builds that could utilize Daze throw in other conditions like Deep Wound and Poison, with a knockdown too. Most casters I've encountered who are unable to block/blind are dead before Daze wears off lol.

Dr Strangelove · May 08, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

EDIT: Dismiss is usually the first skill I catch on a (good) Monk. The point is I do immediately capitalize on the Daze - BHA Rangers don't have this option (no spike).

I'd argue that a monk trying to dismiss daze with a melee on top of him is bad. My first response would be to run like hell. If that fails, I pop shield bash, or whatever stance I'm running. If that doesn't work, I use RoF, patient spirit, or spirit bond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

In my experience, combining Beguiling Haze with Iron Palm,

In that case, it's the knockdown that's killing the monk, though I'll admit BH is a decent way to set the primer condition for iron palm.

Kaleban · May 08, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

In that case, it's the knockdown that's killing the monk, though I'll admit BH is a decent way to set the primer condition for iron palm.

Well, I'd argue its both. They do stand up, and with a fast attack chain and Daze you will interrupt the 1/4 second casts, knockdown on its own doesn't do the trick.

Besides, who can argue with a 20 second recharging shadow step with Daze?

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Besides, who can argue with a 20 second recharging offensive shadow step, period?

Fix'd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

In that case, it's the knockdown that's killing the monk

I reckon just a single KD won't cut it.

moriz · May 08, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

i'm not entirely sure on this, but i swear beguiling haze has aftercast. there's no other explaination why i can't hit any moving targets successfully after using it.

i've been playing with this:

[build prof=A/W deadly=12+1+1 shadow=8+1 dagger=8+1 critical=7+1][beguiling haze][iron palm][falling spider][twisting fangs][signet of deadly corruption][signet of toxic shock][dash][feigned neutrality][/build]

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i'm not entirely sure on this, but i swear beguiling haze has aftercast. there's no other explaination why i can't hit any moving targets successfully after using it.

i've been playing with this:

[build prof=A/W deadly=12+1+1 shadow=8+1 dagger=8+1 critical=7+1][beguiling haze][iron palm][falling spider][twisting fangs][signet of deadly corruption][signet of toxic shock][dash][feigned neutrality][/build]

True. You can see (on a stationary target) the Sin still has to get up a bit after the Shadow Step before he goes down again in the animation of Iron Palm. (EDIT: this is exactly why I prefer to cast Haze as an interrupt - the short KD-thingy it causes is enough to snare the target for Iron Palm - Falling to go verrrry smoothly.)

Iron Palm is a strange puppy though.
- Its effect: KD. This enables the use of Falling skills, takes no genius.
- Yet: it also counts as a lead attack... which makes no sense at first sight.

It does, however, enable you to follow up with another offhand if the Falling thing flukes it for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because you have to run too far after Iron Palm, or the target throws up a block stance - the latter happens pretty often in AB, so I run Wild Strike to end such nonsense and make sure Twisting Fangs connects. Moriz, If you intend to make the fullest of SoDC, you could run Mantis Touch as backup.

RavagerOfDreams · May 08, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i'm not entirely sure on this, but i swear beguiling haze has aftercast. there's no other explaination why i can't hit any moving targets successfully after using it.

i've been playing with this:

[build prof=A/W deadly=12+1+1 shadow=8+1 dagger=8+1 critical=7+1][beguiling haze][iron palm][falling spider][twisting fangs][signet of deadly corruption][signet of toxic shock][dash][feigned neutrality][/build]

that build is awesome crazy fun to run

moriz · May 08, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

that "short KD thing" is actually the interrupt animation... which won't occur if target is moving.

maybe i should fit caltrops somewhere in the build, or crippling dagger.

the sound effect from signet of deadly corruption is pretty funny too. it's like: "SHLUURP!"

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

that "short KD thing" is actually the interrupt animation... which won't occur if target is moving.

Precisely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

maybe i should fit caltrops somewhere in the build, or crippling dagger.

Still suggest [skill]mantis touch[/skill] but then again I have [skill]dancing daggers[/skill] to work with. Crippling Dagger is meh at best, you won't be spamming it - so it still pales to Siphon Speed. I don't know if you could support both Caltrops and Haze energy-wise.

RavagerOfDreams · May 09, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

[skill]Caltrops[/skill] is definitely your best option
you get the ranged snare and its more spammable then mantis touch however bobby is right you have to be good with your energy to use it as it is a bit of a hog

Bobby2 · May 09, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

[skill]Caltrops[/skill] is definitely your best option
you get the ranged snare

Mantis Touch is ranged also. And it lets you pass through to Twisting Fangs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

and its more spammable then mantis touch

Care much for spammability in an instagib build?